Christianity is not meant to make you a better person. if you follow all of the commands exclusively, this would be the result, but that is impossible, not even the Apostle Paul could do it. I sin no less than most unbelievers, i struggle in every way that i can imagine and do not know how to stop it. but i know that i am safe from judgement because
i accept that I am a sinner.
i accept that in the eyes of a perfect person, i am no better than hitler, stalin, osama, etc.
i accept that my actions deserve consequences, but
i accept that i dont have to pay these consequences, because God has provided a way out that does not involve my own ability to be good.
I am like a toddler trying to push a car, while my dad is standing there about to start it with the keys. the only way to move the car is to swallow my pride and ask my father's help.
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The second proposition is really the only one I can not understand at all. Why, in the eyes of a perfect person, would you be no better than hitler? A loving person, like your mom or a close friend, would never dare to compare you to hitler, one of the most evil human beings to ever live. If that person ever did, wouldn't you feel a little less loved? I know I would if my own mom told me I was no better than a man who murdered 9 million innocent people out of racism and hatred.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's only your earthly mother. Think of how much more love a pefect God should have. That's why I dont understand, I mean do you blame me?
You say God is perfect, but clearly definitions of perfect vary from person to person. For example, your definition of a perfect God is one who looks at everyone the same, all deserving to have their skin melted off in a burning furnace, but out of his mercy, he saves a very small portion of them because they believe on faith that a virgin gave birth to a son who died and came back to life three days later.
ReplyDeleteMy definition of a perfect God is one who doesn't allow for earthquakes to kill thousands or for little girls to be raped and murdered, one who doesn't send people to hell just because they were gay and didn't believe in Jesus or because they were brought up Muslim and knew nothing else.
And you might say that it is not you who defines perfect, but the Bible, the word of God himself. Even so, here are some bible verses to illustrate my point:
ReplyDeleteIf a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:13)
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. (Exodus 31:15)
If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. (Exodus 21:20-21)
I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. (1 Timothy 2:12)
So even by what the Bible says about God, he is clearly not perfect, commanding gay people to be put to death, and all those people working Sundays at Walmart to be killed as well. Oh yeah, and he not only condones slavery, the ownership of human beings, but he also permits masters to beat them (as long as they're able to get up after a day or two).
(not rehtorical. would appreciate a response)
ReplyDeleteDo you believe there is a difference between hitler and timothy McVay?
DO you believe that perfection is relative to each imperfect person's view?
There is one documented case in the Bible of a person being killed for working on the Sabbath, no case of anyone being killed for homosexual actions. there were also laws that said if a child were disrespectful to his parents, he should be killed. Needless to say, parents turned out reluctant to turn their child for such offenses, never was there a recorded instance of this penalty being carried out. Many executions are recorded in the bible, so it is not too far fetched to think that most executions were recorded.
God did not want to kill men who liked shopping for bright clothes and tight goat skin pants. He wanted to prevent people who might have performed "gay" actions, from performing these actions. and in this respect, it worked. It kept people from acting in a way that was harmful to themselves, like suicide, or cutting themselves. i know that sounds rough, but in a time before condoms, anal sex could cause fatal STD's much easier than today, so it would be self destructive, and dangerous to others.
ReplyDeleteIf you live in a culture where gays are looked at as normal, you are more likely to turn out gay. Most Gays say that they would be straight if they could choose to, and i believe them. it probably sucks to be looked at as different by everyone and disowned by your own family. So would'nt any successful effort to make them straight be what they are asking for?
mark 2 27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."
notice Paul says "I do not allow a woman to teach..." he is not forbidding others to do so. it might be culturally unacceptable at that time, just like it is unacceptable to ecourage a woman to be quiet now. he also says that he does not eat meat because it offends some christians, but acknowledges it is not morally wrong. therefore, not all that he discourages is wrong, but merely unhelpful, and he makes that distinction.
"'All things are permissible to me', but not all things are benificial."- apostle Paul.
You just proved my point. Decent people used there own judgement and decided not to kill disobedient children. They used their own judgement rather than the christian god's because they realized that it just wasn't the right thing to do. I am telling you that you must ultimately use your own judgement to decide what is right (and of course there are those of us who are crazy and kill without feeling remorseful but lets only talk about rational human beings for now.) It's like this, if I have the choice to choose which Ultimate Authority to follow, doesn't that make me the ultimate authority? You are picking and choosing what you want to believe out of the bible, what YOU and most rational human beings believe to be right. Clearly slavery is not right, neither is killing homosexuals or disobedient children, even though God commands it.
ReplyDeleteOf course I believe there is a difference between the two people you mentioned, but I want to make something clear. What I don't agree with is that the christian god either makes people burn alive forever or live in complete bliss forever. this is clearly an insanely unfair way to judge. I believe both of these people probably deserved the death penalty, hitler definitely moreso than the other guy, but I dont think anyone deserves to burn in hell forever. But you guys say everyone who doesnt practice the same religion as you will burn in hell forever. I think that might be why most people get turned off when christianity is mentioned. Because theyre being told they'll burn in hell forever. It would turn me off.
I just really really dont understand the whole thing about the person who loves you most in the world saying youre no better than hitler. Its really a shame to believe something like that.
You can argue your way out of anything, but simply put, as I have said multiple times, it is not a fair way to judge, hell or heaven. Especially if its all based on believing in a virgin birth. It is just not fair. That's why your beliefs are a contradiction. You believe God judges this way, yet you believe he is just. IT IS NOT JUST, and you should most certainly agree on that. I can't convince you, so I shouldn't try to argue anymore. It should be absolutely clear to you that it is not fair to send a person to hell just because they can't (not don't want to, but CAN'T) believe in Jesus, or were just brought up Buddhist or what have you. It should be absolutely clear and if you don't think so, I won't be able to convince you.
ReplyDelete"Anyone who strikes another man and kills him will surely be put to death." followed by "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished"
ReplyDelete--Also would like a response to prior questions, its the least you could do since i have answered all your quotes as well as i could.
you are right when you say we cannot choose what authority we are under, if i cannot understand that policemen exist, i still could get pulled over. If someone owes you money, and another person sinned against you, you would take money regardless of where your friend got it. But if another person got punished for the sin your friend did to you, you would be ashamed, because justice has not been done, because you have no right to someone who has not wronged you.
ReplyDeletealso the fact that some people are born in christian homes and most in others shows a likliness for christianity greater in some groups than others, an excellent point.
but i would like some cooperation and less longwinded tangents, as i address one thing you are already on the next. it is not the questions, but the order they are thrown out that is frustrating to a one track mind like mine. ill try to be as organised as posible, and definitely will think about what you said, i hope you do the same, thanks for posting.
:( sorry, i'll try to be more organized. I did answer your first question about hitler, and I'll answer the second question, "DO you believe that perfection is relative to each imperfect person's view?" I think it is true in some cases, like what the perfect cheeseburger is, of course everybody thinks of this differently. And most people would say a perfect God has the qualities of being good, fair, and powerful, so on that type of perfection, most imperfect people agree. (however as I said before, some imperfect people are crazy but we just will disregard them.) But what these people dont agree on is exactly what goodness is or exactly what fairness is. This is what I'm saying, that saying God is just can be interpreted differently by each person. I don't think God is fair by sending those people to hell and you do.
ReplyDeleteAnd you're probably right about me going on tangents, so I'm sorry and I will not bring up any new issues, but can you please address what I said in those last couple posts. I just don't think it will help as it simply does not make sense for the person who loves you more than your mother to say you're no better than Hitler, and it should not be okay for you and other Christians to pick and choose what to obey out of the bible if it is truly God's perfect word. I did not bring up any new points, I have only reiterated the two from my last post, as I'm not convinced you've properly addressed them.
Please copy and paste the link and watch this video, hopefully it will explain everything better than I can.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An1-ntyBcz8
thank you for addressing these questions, it means alot to me.
ReplyDeleteexcellent link, always thought the name of that song was, "candy from a baby" or something. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=26092
Do you think God did not love Hitler? If he loves everyone, he must have.
Hitler took the words of Darwin seriously, (that only the fit animals survive, that people are animals) and acted on them, simply did what he thought was right, from a "scientific" perspective. his evil actions stemmed from a false belief. We condemn his actions because we believe that people are not to be treated based on there physical worth to society, a belief that our culture has gotten from the Bible.
if you disagree post a short explanatory comment.
If you say Hiler and Mcveigh deserve the death penalty, though hitler killed over ten thousand times as many people, then you have said that sins are not a matter of quantity, but of quality. to a sinful person like me, murder is awful. to a better person than me, lying is awful. But wat about that better person to a perfect person? It is impossible to know how awful that better person would appear. I cannot judge people who have done a less evil action than i, but have more right to judge someone who has done a more evil action than me. that is why the death penalty is effective. think about a murderer, even if he lives his life absolutely perfect, then kills someone, he is to be put to death. if you can weigh sins, (1 ounce per lie, 1 pound for fornication, 20 pounds for murder)
he would come up far less than me. but because the nature of his single sin is bad enough, he is to be executed. I would like to know what your views on judgement are. Do you believe that people are judged by the worst sin they commit, and that sin they commit is compared to the majority of people that do not commit them?
(again not rehtorical.)
When i say God is perfect, i do NOT mean perfect in all ways I WANT HIM TO BE. i mean, he is:
Perfectly Just
Perfectly Loving
perfectly Wise
these things are not relative to other's beliefs. I can say that love and sex are synonmous, but I'd be simply wrong. i know you do not believe in relativism based on your comments. What is the combination of perectly Just, Loving,and Wise God, and how would it affect us? the difference between us and God was infinite, and the payment Christ gave was infinitely vast.
Cool metaphors, good words, thats some introspective stuff..
ReplyDeleteA great dialogue going on here. Nice conceit about the child pushing the car.
ReplyDelete"We condemn his actions because we believe that people are not to be treated based on there physical worth to society, a belief that our culture has gotten from the Bible."
ReplyDeleteI agree that for some of us, this belief was taken from the bible. But the golden rule (instructing us how to treat others) appeared thousands of years before Jesus of Nazareth said it. A person can have a sense of morality without the bible and it gets rather annoying when you keep insisting that morality comes from the bible and the bible only. As I have said before, modern christians use there own sense of morality to disregard the evil commands that god gives us, like its okay to beat slaves or kill someone who works on sunday. If our morality was endowed in us by the god of the bible, we would still find these bible verses perfectly acceptable. (I tried to make that as short as possible)
I'll address the last thing you said too. "i mean, he is:
Perfectly Just
Perfectly Loving
perfectly Wise
these things are not relative to other's beliefs."
It's just hard for me to believe that these things are not relative when you think a loving, just god would send everyone who is not an evangelical chritian to hell, and i dont think so. I don't think this exemplifies perfect love and fairness. So who is right? I'm going with my gut instinct, my definition of love and fairness that is within me; its the only thing I can go by. What are you going by? It's a confusing topic, and I don't expect you to have all the answers. But you're right, on some topics I am not a relativist, but others it is hard not to be. But when I take a relativist position, it doesn't make things any easier. Things are confusing no matter what side you take.
and my views on judgment:
ReplyDeleteI believe we judge people very fairly in our country, and we have developed a very effective court system. I think that this is the closest we have gotten to a "perfect" way of judging. I dont agree that one ruler should condemn everyone equally by hell if they dont believe his son died on a cross.
I also believe that sin is judged on a case by case basis, not all at once at the end of your life.
"I believe we judge people very fairly in our country, and we have developed a very effective court system. I think that this is the closest we have gotten to a "perfect" way of judging." you are prolife and belive that every (or at least most) fetus killed is a person. do you believe that a country which has ended the lives of 30,000,000 innocent people, by your standard is as close as we have gotten to perfection? were we not closer in the time before Roe V Wade? we have slidden back to barbarity in this regard, and i do not believe we have made up for it. I doubt that you honestly believe we are at the best place we have ever been.
ReplyDeletemorality does not come from the bible, it is instilled in each of us. what the bible does is explain its origins. in this way buddha could practice biblical principles better than Moses, but buddha would not know why he believed what he did, and came to false conclusions. imagine a conversation from Jesus and from buddha
ReplyDeleteBuddha: "treat others as you would be treated."
crowd:"sounds good, but why?"
Buddha:"It will help you reach enlightenment and feel good."
Jesus: "love your neighbor as yourself"
crowd:"why"
Jesus: "Because the creator of every person in all the world in every time period, knit them together uniquely to serve a purpose, and He loves them. If he the smartest existent being in the galaxy chooses to love them, it must be the logical choice." you obviously know a lot more about buddihsm than i do with your club (haha), i do not know exactly what he believed. I would like to know more about buddha's beliefs, please enlighten me(haha).
haha i dont know anything about it. I didnt much like that experience. But those are excellent points. And i dont want to label myself prolife, I am against most abortions. But I dont think that conception is automatically grounds that nothing can be done, because I dont believe a soul is injected at this point. And besides, "soul" is a pretty vague concept anyway, so its hard to even take a definite stance.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes I do believe we are better now in some ways, morally wise; for example we have womens rights and equal rights for black and white people, and more people are starting to care about the environment (this is a moral issue because it shows that more people are concerned with providing a better home and better conditions for their children.) I think our country is more morally correct than most others. In Iran, im pretty sure muslims kill people for being gay. pretty barbaric, but thats what happens when you take the bible literally. (I know you hate it when i keep bringing up the gay issue)
And i think youre right, I think morality is instilled within each of us. But I think it is implausible that a perfect God put it in us, when some people have a flawed sense of morality and murder without remorse for example. Some of these people really don't think it is wrong to murder (i mean murder innocent people), and most of them are crazy. To me it just seems more plausible that morals are endowed in us by nature, and sometimes nature makes mistakes, that explains the crazy people.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you think my points are good, but you still have not said whether we are at the best time in our history or not. I believe we are not.
ReplyDelete"4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States From 1882-1968,-"faculty.berea.edu/browners/chesnutt/classroom/lynchingstat.html
"17,030 people were murdered in US in 2006"-wikianswers
"According to FBI statistics, over 18,000 people were murdered in 1997"
www.murdervictims.com/murder_statistics.htm
if 1/3000 fetuses killed were "people", there would still be more people killed in the last thirty years than in 80 years of lynching.
You say you are against most abortions, so that logically means there have been at least 15,000,001 abortions you do not agree with.
correct?
i'm curious, which right that we gave to Women or Blacks can any one think is worth more than 15,000,000 lives? In fact, just off the top of your head, name one right that we gave to blacks or women in the last thirty, no, fifty years... i know i cant think of any. The Fifteenth Amendment was added to the Constitution in 1870 to protect Blacks’ voting rights.(just looked it up ;)
overall, the scale has to be weighed toward my conclusion, again using your standards about abortion and equal rights.
i dont mind addressing all issues, but you do still go from one thing to the next a bit too quick for my liking. it is good to know you honestly think about what i say. i want to know what your thinking about, like with abortion, "against it most of the time",hardly constitutes a premise for scientific debate. Perhaps you should say "we should stop all abortions until we find out exactly when they feel pain, when they have a thought, when they first kick." if that is what you believe. make a firm stand that you can use again and again without me being confused about it, lets define the terms so we dont have to second guess what the other is thinking
"im pretty sure muslims kill people for being gay. pretty barbaric, but thats what happens when you take the bible literally." ----------koran?---------
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
Jesus did not fulfill the punishment on the adulterous woman, a sin as bad as homosexual actions. i think i can take that literally. Also, the way you say "being gay" in the same way as you could say "being black". The ariginal law was not meant to kill a type of people, but people who performed a very specific action, like beastiality or incest. it is obviously likely to appeal to some more than others, but what sin doesn't.
I just don't know enough about abortion to take a definite stance is all. But we're not debating that anyway. And you're right about the 15 million abortions or whatever, good point. And I dont necessarily believe we're at the best time in history. I just think that our court system is a better way to judge than the god of the bible judges. That's all im saying.
ReplyDeleteand also, it may be in the koran, but it is also in the bible as i have shown (killing gay people)
Good bible passage. That is the new testament and clearly jesus doesnt exemplify the kind of barbaric teachings that god teaches in the old testament.
i have a nice beard, but I AM NOT An OLD TESTAMENT JEW. as for abortion, you dont take any stance at all. you say i dont agree, but any idiot can disagree, and i know you are a very intelligent person. Now what, what exactly do you think should be done? we are talking a bout peopkle right? is it really time to be second guessing yourself about that? i you were hunting and saw something and were 50% sure it was not human, would you shoot? no, better safe than sorry. why not just sday it? is it so hard? i know what you believe based on what any logical person believes just MAKE ANY STANCE so i dont have to guess.
ReplyDeletewe're not even debating abortion so i dont have to :p
ReplyDeletei'll take it on a case by case basis
ReplyDeletealright, than you agree on it with me completely in every way and there is nothing to contest? that is the only way there is nothing to debate.
ReplyDeleteno, i just want to leave this page to the main topic were debating. Weve gone on too many tangents already
ReplyDeleteok. back to overall morality. i believe it is measurable by murder rates, and other factors. i dont belive we are morally wiser overall.
ReplyDeleteyou're a piss ant jerk
ReplyDeleteyeah.
ReplyDeleteend of debate. we finally agree on something
ReplyDeletegraetest picture ever at chinaparace.blogspot.com
ReplyDeletewe've gone on a tangent, back to the top i guess."A loving person, like your mom or a close friend, would never dare to compare you to hitler, one of the most evil human beings to ever live."- This is an example of 2 people who loves you, not of a loving people. What do you think Hitler's mom or close friend would describe him as? their relationship would prevent them from seeing his bad side, so why would you bring up a mother as a credible source for judgement on the son. This only shows, as i have said, that relationships are a factor in judgement.
ReplyDelete"You say God is perfect, but clearly definitions of perfect vary from person to person"
ReplyDeleteDug, you're an idiot.
When i typed that on the computer, did you feel a part of your brain get dumber? Does my belief about you change the fact you are intelligent?
"Think of how much more love a pefect God should have." Have you ever taken care of spiders, their nasty little creatures,guided by instinct. The mothers "lovingly" make a cocoon for the Babies and watch it while they hatch. I, and my millions of Neurons, have more ability to love, possibly more than the love of all spiders combined. But do i love spiders? No, and why would I? If i cannot relate to another creature with my ability to love it why should an omnipotent God want to love me? infinite possibility is not infinite probability, and that would suck if it was the end of the statement. Have you ever been dirty and made to wash off before being allowed in the house? was there any doubt of your mother's love because she would not let you in? but to God sin is not dirt, it is not even small pox. It is the one thing that exists that is repulsive to him. Infinitely repulsive to an infinite mind, which is a lot. doesn't He have the right to hand you a towel and tell you to wash up?
ReplyDelete